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Little Miss Attila is Still on the Line about Waterboarding. RSM certainly is not, blowing the lid off of the comment count for previous posts.
All I have to do is consider the following:
- My colleague and fellow Naval Reservist, LCDR Robert Elseth, who picked the wrong (or the right: he was a Christian of the Methodist persuasion, IIRC) week to do some Annual Training in the Navy Command Center.
- The usage of waterboarding could not have been more discriminate while still occurring. This was not wanton mayhem.
- The will of the people prevailed. Even the constrained usage of point #2 was deemed too much, and it stopped. Whether or not you yourself consider waterboarding torture, the consensus is that Waterboarding Is Torture. Really no need for further discussion, on our part.
- Captured by the terrorists, waterboarding is the least of your worries. Particularly any woman.
Senator McCain's misgivings are also to be respected. Had I trod his path (heaven forbid, please), I should surely see his viewpoint. The court of public opinion has weighed in. It was done, it's discontinued, let's move on.
In summary, my opinion is that the measured use of waterboarding while at the edge of acceptability, was acceptable, but that the line has been moved, and it is no longer generally acceptable.
HotMES also has a post on this topic. Monique, there is a difference between tasteless jokes about torture and actual torture, just as there is between murder and someone saying "I'm going to kill you" without homicidal intent. And that's about as close as I can get to defending the left.
Waterboard some Republicans, and suddenly nobody on the left will have a single peep of protest to utter against it.
ReplyDeleteRound up all the innocent and decent people you care to, and not a single soul therein will have ever enjoyed a moment of defense from the left; passionate, halfhearted, anywhere in between. Not at any time, not under any circumstance.
Round up all the people who've enjoyed a spirited defense from the left, and you'll see a true Rogue's Gallery; not a single soul therein will have ever known innocence or decency.
These are two entirely mutually-exclusive groups, and this is by design. The left wing's defense is reserved for an elite crowd of genuine scumbags. And this isn't going to change anytime soon.
I am unapologetic that I believe that when it comes protecting America the end justifies to means. I don't understand people who when given a choice between torture and another 9-11 they choose another 9-11.
ReplyDelete"The usage of waterboarding," says Smitty, "could not have been more discriminate while still occurring. This was not wanton mayhem."
ReplyDeleteKSM was waterboarded 183 times in one month. All things being equal, that's 6 times a day, once every 4 hours, for 30 days straight. Discriminate? Come again, Smitty?
Smitty goes on: "W was granted authorization to engage in WAR, not some pleasant, abstract weekend discourse, oh purveyors of weenie-hood."
Yes, I agree 100%. War is hell, no doubt. But that doesn't give us the freedom to do whatever we please whenever we please to whomever we please.
We are a civilized people. We are a Christian people. We are the heirs of reason, rationality, rule of law. We are blessed with a heritage of liberal treatment for our fellow men in all but the most dire circumstances.
In the field, with shells falling, I can understand -- even excuse -- almost anything. But in a secure prison totally removed from the random hazards of battle . . . then I expect modern, civilized people to act like modern, civilized people.
Robert Stacy McCain thinks it's cool -- that's the vibe I get, cool -- to act like a damn Third World thug, torturing people for thrill and punishment and, oh yeah, 'information.'
He can reconcile waterboarding and other forms of torture (some of which were definitely worse) with our society. Save for a few highly implausible scenarios, I can't. I don't see how any Christian conservative can.
I read a lot into torture. To my eye, once you start torturing, you quit being civilized, you join the barbarians hacking away at each other. That's all barbarians do: Find reasons or make excuses to draw the blood of their enemies.
Our entire civilization rests on the notions that all people -- not just the few who belong to the immediate polity -- are endowed with dignity, dignity that must be respected, dignity that's protected by a vast shield of laws and rules and mores and norms.
Abandon those standards and you abandon everything. Abandon them and you signal your willingness to live in the chaos of a society governed by men, not laws, where everything is relative and anyone susceptible to the forces of might, rather than right.
Me, I stand for civilization.
http://who-whom.blogspot.com/2009/04/for-civilization.html
"I am unapologetic that I believe that when it comes protecting America the end justifies to means. I don't understand people who when given a choice between torture and another 9-11 they choose another 9-11."
ReplyDeleteThose who hate us now hate us more. We have proven everything they claimed about us: That we are evil, vicious, unconcerned with human life. By torturing, we inflame those we should be convincing.
We have faced worse enemies than Middle Eastern barbarians without resorting to the most primitive and savage means of defense and intelligence gathering.
We spend billions on our spy operations. Don't tell me we need to violate everything we hold sacred in order to figure out what the Islamists are up to. Bullshit!
@Philip, in reply to both of your posts:
ReplyDeletea) Name the "third world thug" who'd have left any of the three (3) captives alive. I think you're engaging in the common behavior of getting so focused on the single act that you lack all perspective and proportion in what you're saying. There seems to be a requirement at work to call the Bush Administration every thing save human beings. Beyond your chest thumping, tell me what you've done in life, what decisions you've had to make, that make you so pure in your righteous indignation. Maybe you have such John McCain-level moral authority. Maybe you don't. RSM, for example, has six children. His attitude befits that of the protective father--Christian or otherwise.
"Me, I stand for civilization."Your positions on many issues seem to echo those in Europe, who, in their fecklessness, are watching their civilization melt away. We shan't retain ours along your path, I fear.
b) Those who hate us now hate us more. We have proven everything they claimed about us: That we are evil, vicious, unconcerned with human life. By torturing, we inflame those we should be convincing.You assignment is to watch Evan Sayet.
3. The will of the people prevailed. Even the constrained usage of point #2 was deemed too much, and it stopped. Whether or not you yourself consider waterboarding torture, the consensus is that Waterboarding Is Torture.Seriously? No, seriously? You're willing to go with the consensus? Homeland Security must love you. Additionally, the will of the people prevailed. Whether or not you consider abortion the murder of the unborn, the consensus is that Abortion is a constitutional right!
ReplyDeleteSo hey! It's all good. If 51% of the peoples think it's a great idea..then fine. Must be a great idea.
Yikes!!!
Lana
Waterboarding isn't even in a grey area. Waterboarding is not torture.
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing how hard the left strains and stretches a moral equivalence just to try to score a political point. That's torture.
Bush=Hitler
Waterboarding=Torture
Zionism=Apartheid
That's when trying to make the right look bad.
100M$=MassiveBudgetCut
$400TaxRebate=TaxCutsFor90%
Trying to make themselves look good.
The fun never ends with these clowns.