tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4223398383609158624.post1332134491674254960..comments2024-02-24T00:37:43.087-05:00Comments on The Other McCain: Cultural illiteracyRobert Stacy McCainhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03084541621503669804noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4223398383609158624.post-19857313050987583422009-02-17T14:46:00.000-05:002009-02-17T14:46:00.000-05:00I'm clearly talking about college graduates, and I...<B> I'm clearly talking about college graduates, and I'm saying that the average college graduate knows less -- in terms of history, geography, literature and languages -- than was true 40, 50 or 100 years ago. </B><BR/>First, that is not a fair comparison given the radically increased percentage of the population graduating college. In the neighborhood of 4x the percentage of the over 25 population has graduated college than 50-60 years ago. You are comparing the elite 6-7% with the elite 26-27%.<BR/>Secondly and more importantly, do you have any evidence for your assertion?<BR/>History of what? Western Civ exclusively or does other world history count?<BR/>Which literature?<BR/>Regarding languages, it was necessary to learn German if you wanted to be up to date in science 60 years ago. That is no longer the case. Now you must know English and knowing English gives you access to all but some small portion of German and French science and some gray literature.<BR/>Latin and German are certainly useful in learning our language better, but virtually everything is translated and it is usually possible to find good annotated translations of anything you would want to read. Why is reading Cicero in the original more important than understanding the fundamentals of evolutionary theory?<BR/><B> "Technological literacy," and yet our best graduate schools in engineering, medicine and science are notoriously full of foreign students. </B><BR/>Yet there are still far more American born students (by number and % of population) than there were 50-60 years ago. Remember also that those foreign born students are there because it is the best place to get that technical education.<BR/><B>That a college-bound student should be able to fulfill the foreign-language requirement with Spanish (which I take to be almost the only foreign language that most students learn nowadays) utterly misses the original purpose of the foreign-language requirement, which I won't even go into.</B><BR/>Why not go into it? It offered the opportunity to read some texts in the original and helped improve English language skills, other than that all it did was allow what passed for witty banter. Spanish also allows for improved understanding of English, allows reading of some contemporary literature in the original and actually lets you communicate with a wide swath of people in nearby countries. It also lets you get much better deals at markets in Spanish speaking countries.<BR/><B> still there was some value in learning a smattering of Caesar and Cicero in the original. </B><BR/>What lasting value did it give that a good annotated translations could not and is that value high enough to crowd out more math or science instruction?<BR/><B>We have lost a culture in which allusions to history and literature were the common language of educated men and gained a culture in which allusions to TV shows and movies are the only such references anyone understands.</B><BR/>But that culture, such as it was, comprised considerably less than 5% of the population. By the 50s the GI bill was in full swing and I seriously doubt that all of those additional students were bantering about Cicero, Danton, and Cateline. I'm also willing to bet that the elite 5% of today match up well with the elite 5% of 50, 100, or 150 years ago.Grewgillshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04548316758268656509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4223398383609158624.post-82669912896583987462009-02-17T13:47:00.000-05:002009-02-17T13:47:00.000-05:00We've been hearing this one for decades: "We live ...We've been hearing this one for decades: <BR/><BR/>"We live in a much more complicated world than existed fifty years ago, requiring us to train our young people in a variety of tasks. Most obviously, today's kids are vastly more technologically literate than those of previous generations."<BR/><BR/>This simply isn't so. It is just false. In the thousands of years of human history only 40 more have passed since "it all became too complicated to teach it all." Forty out of 4,000 ain't much history. Technology, let's see one of our technically gifted modern students operate the machinery and appliances of previous centuries. They had to learn the far more complex and far less user friendly equipment that surrounded them. Put down the laptop and get out of the Toyota and go start and drive a Model T. Hell, I'm a geezer and recently started learning and using CAD and CAM software. I didn't have to give up any of my education for that. This is a lame and pathetic excuse created by losers for losers.<BR/><BR/>There is no increase in the number of peoples of the Earth, no more natural phenomena, not a bit more geography, the laws of physics remain unchanged. And while our understanding of these things may have increased and been improved, our present generation of college educated ignoramuses doesn't know a damn thing more about them than they did in the past.<BR/><BR/>There is not more to be taught, only laziness in teaching it and complete ignorance of the need to learn it. As you point out, that is the crime here, not that a college grad is ignorant, they always have been. But in years past that grad knew he had much to learn still, and had the mental and emotional equipment to do so.Ronsonichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03084095209525920755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4223398383609158624.post-76936417263406108462009-02-17T13:45:00.000-05:002009-02-17T13:45:00.000-05:00Sometimes in conversation I realize just how bless...Sometimes in conversation I realize just how blessed I was to receive a 'classical' education. I can identify and likely talk for 5 minutes on the topic of each name you listed.<BR/><BR/>I went to a Jesuit HS where there was still some traditional education happening - even in the 90s! JUst as important though was what I learned at home form my college educated parents who thought arguing the causes of the French Revolution was totally reasonable dinner conversation.<BR/><BR/>I took 4 years of Latin and 2 years of Greek. I don't remember much. HOwever, I think that the discipline of learning it was the true lesson. Also translating Cicero's first oration against Catiline made me realize something very important... people in history were SMART. They might not have had cars, or airplanes - but that didn't mean that they couldn't teach valuable lessons to us today.Mary Marthahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00719610017317232480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4223398383609158624.post-14560835839595427892009-02-17T11:05:00.000-05:002009-02-17T11:05:00.000-05:00Nor would you see any flicker of recognition from ...<I>Nor would you see any flicker of recognition from that average student if you mentioned Black Jack Pershing, or Leon Trotsky or Whitaker Chambers, or Danton or Marat, or Catiline or Cicero, or Austerlitz or Agincourt or Cannae.</I><BR/><BR/>I only recognize half of those, he said in a very small voice.Lance Burrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17746501103895547057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4223398383609158624.post-91872336480420148682009-02-17T09:45:00.000-05:002009-02-17T09:45:00.000-05:00Man, this is just like the pope executing Galileo ...Man, this is just like the pope executing Galileo all over again.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Yes I'm joking, though I had to correct a college student about that this past week.Baron Korfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07215856728880521796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4223398383609158624.post-18542493120317206842009-02-17T07:26:00.000-05:002009-02-17T07:26:00.000-05:00Amen. Alternative schooling in the '70's screwed ...Amen. Alternative schooling in the '70's screwed me up to the extent that I am only now digging myself out of that cloying hole.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16771008643051952354noreply@blogger.com